Maori talks with award-winning producer/director Lisa Cortés and model and advocate turned filmmaker Bethann Hardison, who worked together on the documentary Invisible Beauty, about Bethann’s life. In the episode we hear how they both got their start and navigated their trailblazing careers without roadmaps. Maori also finds out how they met in “a New York that doesn’t exist anymore” and how Bethann, a “reluctant hero,” became both the subject and co-director of the film, after decades of advocating for more diversity in the fashion world.
Subscribe to Many Lumens wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on Instagram and Twitter @manylumens for the latest.
All episode transcripts and show notes are available at manylumens.com.
Many Lumens is brought to you by the Open Society Foundations.
Maori talks with award-winning producer/director Lisa Cortés and model and advocate turned filmmaker Bethann Hardison, who worked together on the documentary Invisible Beauty, about Bethann’s life. In the episode we hear how they both got their start and navigated their trailblazing careers without roadmaps. Maori also finds out how they met in “a New York that doesn’t exist anymore” and how Bethann, a “reluctant hero,” became both the subject and co-director of the film, after decades of advocating for more diversity in the fashion world.
Subscribe to Many Lumens wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on Instagram and Twitter @manylumens for the latest.
All episode transcripts and show notes are available at manylumens.com.
Many Lumens is brought to you by the Open Society Foundations.
[00:00:00] Maori Karmael Holmes: As part of their enduring commitment to justice, equity, and expression, the Open Society Foundations are proud to sponsor many lumens.
You are listening to Many Lumens where we talk about and find meaning in the intersections of art, social change, and popular culture. I'm your host, Maori Karmael Holmes. In this episode, I have the honor to speak with award-winning producer and director Lisa Cortés and legendary fashion icon and diversity advocate turned filmmaker Bethann Hardison. These two awe-inspiring women are responsible for the documentary film Invisible Beauty co-directed by Bethann. Invisible Beauty is a retrospective of Bethann's career and her impact on the fashion world as one of the first Black runway and print models, as well as her visionary modeling agency and her activism.
In her career Bethann not only paved the way for herself, but for countless models of color that came after her. Bethann was born in Brooklyn, and after a brief stint at NYU was discovered by the fashion designer Willi Smith, who changed her life. She appeared in every major fashion magazine of the time, including Allure, Vogue and Harper's Bazaar. Bethann sought out the assistance of her longtime friend Lisa Cortés:, an award-winning producer responsible for the film's Precious, The Apollo, and Little Richard: I Am Everything. I was interested in meeting with both of these powerhouses who have inspired me on my own trajectory. In this conversation, Lisa and Bethann joined me from their respective homes, and now for my conversation with Lisa Cortés and Bethann Hardison.
[00:01:46] Maori Karmael Holmes: Well, thank you so much. Welcome to Many Lumens, which is BlackStar’s podcast, not only with filmmakers, but largely with people working in film, visual culture, design, media, et cetera. And so we're really, really happy to have you both here with us. I was really excited when I saw the Sundance slate to see that Invisible Beauty existed and that you were a producer on it, Lisa, and we just thought it would be cool to talk to you both together as trailblazers in your own right. And I would really be curious, I'm sure you've answered this a lot, but how did you all meet?
[00:02:24] Lisa Cortés and Bethann Hardison: [both start laughing]
[00:02:26] Bethann Hardison: I thought the same thing. I start to giggle…
[00:02:31] Lisa Cortés: We met in a New York that in a way doesn't exist now, where downtown was happening, where hip hop was infiltrating things, where it was... There was just a different rhythm to the city then, and so many different worlds would come together. But the shorthand is I was in the music business working at Def Jam and Rush.
[00:03:00] Bethann Hardison: Yeah, that's true. And my first encounter, we were at a Jack the Rapper music-
[00:03:08] Maori Karmael Holmes: Oh yeah.
[00:03:09] Bethann Hardison: Music convention.
[00:03:11] Maori Karmael Holmes: Oh yeah. So y'all go way back.
[00:03:14] Bethann Hardison: Yeah, I think you had just gotten out of school. I don't know if that's true or not, but I think she had just landed one of those jobs.
[00:03:23] Lisa Cortés: It was definitely finding my way and identifying people that I just wanted to be in the company of, not only because in Bethann's case of her accomplishments, but just of her aura. How she owns all the things that she is. She owns the space, but it's generous to bring others in. And I was like, that's the kind of person that I want to know because that's what I want to be able to do for others.
[00:03:58] Maori Karmael Holmes: That's incredible. How did you come to work on this film together if you've known each other? I'm going to assume Jack the Rapper, that's 30 years ago. So how did you come to make this film?
[00:04:08] Bethann Hardison: There was a young woman that we both know, she's a filmmaker. She worked with Lisa on a film and we both were at a Tribeca, a film festival event. And I said to her... No, she's just said to me off the cuff, "God, I'm working with Lisa Cortés: and I'll tell you something, she's the best director I've ever worked with." And that always stayed in my head and she was so taken with it. And I knew Lisa Long before she went into the film business. So when a young man, Frédéric Tcheng, who wanted to do this film with me and asked me to co-direct it, he said, "We have to find a producer. You got any ideas of anyone?" And I thought of Lisa and I thought, let me ask her. And the truth be told, I really helped to send me on my way and my belief about the film too when she said yes so fast. So that was a nice thing.
[00:05:00] Maori Karmael Holmes: Well, that's really beautiful. But one thing that I'm really excited about Bethann was that you co-directed because so many people have had biographical documentaries made about them, and most often I believe that participants are co-directing whether or not they get that credit. And so I love that you had that credit from the outset and I'm really curious, was that a condition for you participating in the film or had you had the idea to do the film and then found Frédéric to co-direct with you? How did that come to be?
[00:05:33] Bethann Hardison: Yeah, it was the opposite. There was a film I was working on called Invisible Beauty for quite some time that would sit dormant from time to time with a different director. By the time I had built a little relationship with Frédéric and he and I came to the conclusion that he would come on to help make this film a reality, and that's when I decided the film was about me. And that's something that he always felt it should be anyway. I think it was really the fact that he said to me, "I would do the film, but I need you to come in as a co-director." And his reason for that was because I was alive. I was someone who was still moving about and he didn't want to be responsible for someone telling someone else's story.
[00:00:00] Maori Karmael Holmes: Yeah, it's really, really powerful and particularly in this moment when we're talking about bringing other people to have power at the seat of the table, but then also just thinking about the form itself. But I'm curious, you're mentioning that it started out as another project. What was the original project?
[00:06:34] Bethann Hardison: I was trying to document or tell stories, my industry, the fashion industry, the model industry, had [gone down] a rabbit hole and all of a sudden they no longer were being inclusive of the models of color. They'd gotten to a place where Eastern Europe had sort of taken on a bright light. And I decided that I was going to tell a story about this. It was an exposé in a way and used three girls to tell a story through. That's what it was about. But then I did —without the film actually— I helped change the industry, or made an effect, and couldn't be the subject anymore because now it wasn't looking like what I was going to do. The girls of color, the boys of color were incorporated now. So I decided, well, that's it. I wasn't going to do anything. And then someone said, "No, you still... But the film still has to be done on you." And that's where it's the written paper.
[00:07:32] Maori Karmael Holmes: What was it like being vulnerable in front of the camera and then I'm imagining on the post-production side in the editing phase, having to, as they say, kill your own darlings and edit yourself out. How did you approach that?
[00:07:47] Bethann Hardison: Well, the good news is that I basically was truly the subject more often than ever having to think about the editing. Only a couple of times I may have asked Lisa or Frédéric, do you think that we really should keep that? I said it like that. They were always like, "Yeah." But for me to be in front of it, no. It's funny. I really put on my filmmaking hat that was less of a subject in that way. A couple of times you get like, "Oh God, I don't want to put that mic on again," and you complain or anyone does on any job, but I basically didn't have too much of a problem because I really wanted to make sure I got out of my way and told the story, well, if you're going to step up to do it, then you got to do it.
[00:08:34] Maori Karmael Holmes: Can you both talk about what the process was to establish the structure? This is such a grand life that you've had thus far, so then I would be like... Where would you begin? How did you all approach this?
[00:08:48] Lisa Cortés: Well, going back—Frédéric Tcheng, the co-director, met Bethann when he interviewed her for a piece he put together for the CFDA when Bethann was honored. So he had a thumbnail sketch of her story and he had an idea of important moments. But once Bethann and Fred put their heads together and we started moving forward, they started moving forward first. One of the things that has been so helpful to the process is Bethann has been cataloging her archive. She's been arranging it. And so we started to see that where the materials existed to illustrate these moments that Bethann was talking about. So the archival was a really great foundation, so we knew we had that. That it was like Bethann and Fred were talking and Fred said, "Can I tape our conversations?" Because that was a way for us to have a contemporary storyline and not just be strictly chronological. So it's like a belayer cake. I don't know if Bethann is the foundation or if she's the frosty, maybe she's both. And in between we have the archival, we have the conversations and then the wishlist of who's going to be in this to tell the story.
[00:10:19] Bethann Hardison: That's where I can come in.
[00:10:28] Lisa Cortés: Oh, look at that list. But that big man said that list. I was like, "Iman, you got to..." I was like, "How are we going to get these people?" But I forgot. You write somebody and say, "We're doing a film on Bethann Hardison: and her incredible journey." And with the most challenging schedules they made way. Zendaya is like, "You can come to my house." She did her own makeup because the depth of their... Because what I forgot is Bethann knows Zendaya from when Kadeem played her dad. People often go like, "You're friends with so and so, and so and so, and so and so but Bethann is not only a friend, a mentor, a mother, but it's a deep relationship that has been nurtured and built over time. And that shows up in the quality of the interviews that we have in the film. It speaks to an intimacy of not only the outside person and her accomplishments, but also the internal heart that drives the story.
[00:11:31] Maori Karmael Holmes: Yeah. Lisa, what was surprising to you in the production of this film? Since you've known Bethann for so long, what did you learn that you didn't know before?
[00:11:41] Lisa Cortés: Wow, that's a great question. I don't think it's a big thing, but I think it's — a really interesting part is Bethann's story growing up with her mother and grandmother and then at a critical age going to live with her father who's an Oman. And the knowledge that he pours into her, the framing of how to see the world as a Black person from a place of power and grace and community and commitment. And then the people who come into the house, Malcolm X, she was able as a young person to sit at the feet of some of these incredible leaders, thought leaders, religious leaders, spiritual leaders, and that her father didn't say, "Go in the other room." Now then to be a model, to be a muse to some of these great designers, to have the vision and open this agency. Because oftentimes Bethann is a reluctant hero. She's so brave, but a lot of times she's like, "No, somebody pushed me to do that." But then when she does it, she does it so big. She does it so iconically and really powerful.
[00:13:07] Maori Karmael Holmes: Thank you for sharing that. I think that's a good segue to go into both of your histories a little bit and ask you about some of your childhood and growing up. Lisa, I'll start with you. I know that your father is from Colombia, South America and your mother's from the states, and I was just curious if you knew how they met.
[00:13:30] Lisa Cortés: Well, they met in the center of the world, which is Harlem. That's the center of my world. They were friends for many years and then bleep, little Lisa came on the scene.
[00:13:47] Maori Karmael Holmes: Were either one of them artists or have any artistic leanings? And did they encourage you to pursue a creative field?
[00:13:54] Lisa Cortés: Yes. My mother was an artist. She had gone to Pratt when she was younger. She was always making something. She was a big arts and crafts person, which I think genetically I absorbed in my love of making things either as a producer or as a director. My father was an entrepreneur. When he first came to this country, he was in the Merchant Marines. He had traveled all over the world and the gift he gave me was of travel, of you can go and find your people all over. So he fed my creativity in a different way, whereas my mother was more hands-on like, let's build a Lego castle or let's crochet this. All of those wonderful creative enterprises.
[00:14:56] Maori Karmael Holmes: Thank you for that. I know that you grew up in Connecticut, but of course spent a lot of time in Harlem. How did it influence you? How did it set you up for where you are today?
[00:15:08] Lisa Cortés: I think that Harlem fed a certain poeticism for me, the rhythm, the cadence of people, the freedom, style, spending time at my grandfather's church, which is still in Harlem, the roots, legacy, history, structural integrity. Because Harlem is resilient and certain people are experiencing a more gentrified Harlem now. But I also remember a struggling Harlem, and then I traveled as a scholar and a reader to the Renaissance and a James Baldwin Harlem. So I love that Harlem has so many different flavors and faces and rhythms and feeds my spirit.
[00:15:57] Maori Karmael Holmes: You've said that your parents were a very modern couple, and I'm curious if you could explain what you've meant by this and what did watching their relationship dynamic influence how you move through the world?
[00:16:09] Lisa Cortés: Well, basically my mother did not want to live in the city anymore, and she moved to Connecticut and her and her sisters, originally they bought a four family house. And in each segment of the house, one of the sisters and their families lived. And as the families grew, they then would move away and buy another house in this city where we all lived. My father went crazy in the country. So he would come on the weekends and we would have a great time, and he would play Colombian music and make bacalao and platanos and speak to me in Spanish and leave first thing on Monday morning. So they had this independent space. They came together on the weekends or we would come see my father, or I'd have holidays, all together. But I think this city country divide was really different than all my other friends. But I also saw people who — they were happy with their choices, they were complete. It certainly is a part of how I moved through the world because after a while, spending too much time in New York, every once in a while I call my friends and say, "Can I come visit and be your fresh air fun kid?" And then I go. I go to the country and take my shoes off.
[00:17:41] Maori Karmael Holmes: Speaking of the country, Bethann, I know on both sides of your family, you have roots in the south, I believe in North Carolina. And I was curious if you spent any of your childhood summers the way they're depicted in Crooklyn. Did you go down south?
[00:17:55] Bethann Hardison: Yes. I spent every summer of my life in North Carolina from 18 months old to close to 18 years old. That was the balance of my good life. I really did love it when I was doing it, and when I reflect back on it now, I loved it.
[00:18:10] Maori Karmael Holmes: I read that you described your mother as being cool and someone who was fabulous, and I was wondering where you thought she got her forward-thinking and free-spirited nature from?
[00:18:22] Bethann Hardison: Well, I don't want to give her too much credit that she didn't deserve in that way, but she was just a good time girl. I don't think it's any... It wasn't artistic. It wasn't that. She was just a good time girl and she was popular. She went to houses where the drag queens would go and just perform. She just liked any and everyone. And so I got a chance to see a lot of things that were so different in growing up in the city and then also having the opportunity of being in North Carolina was really wonderful. They were tobacco people. I mean, it's outhouses and a small little house to live in, and you had to prime the well to get water out of it. But it's an interesting life, and I really did appreciate it very much always, even the whole time I was living it.
[00:19:08] Maori Karmael Holmes: Mm-hmm. As Lisa mentioned, your father was an imam and he was an advisor to Malcolm X and other people. I was curious if you knew if he also had any creative pursuits?
[00:19:19] Bethann Hardison: Oh yeah. No, he was a photographer. All my father's side of the family, they all were artistic. My uncle was a very successful art director. My father was a photographer, loved taking pictures, made the kitchen the dark room. No one could come in, no one could go out, door would close. And he did it in the closet. Sorry. He did it in the closet. My uncle believed that I was an artist too. I couldn't see it. I couldn't draw a straight line, but he made me go to NYU Art school anyway, and I just failed. I mean, I was just failing. He said, "It's okay, you still have it. I know you have it." They wouldn't give me an F. They liked me so they give me D's. Things that you... I proved later in life in San Miguel when I was in my home in Mexico one time, I was at a wedding in the north of Mexico and somebody told me that their mother started to paint at that age. So I said, "Well, my uncle always told me I had it." And he said, "You have it." So I wind up doing lessons and I really did very, very well. I mean, it's just a paint class, it's not really so deeply lessons, but everything I did, it was impressive. So I guess I do have it. All I need to do is keep practicing it.
[00:20:36] Maori Karmael Holmes: What did you both want to be as little girls?
[00:20:40] Bethann Hardison: I think I always wanted to dance. I wanted to really perfect dancing, not as a modern dancer. I just wanted to always to be able to dance. That I've always done. I don't think I ever had that kind of thing like girls had, "Oh, I'd like to be this when I grow up." I was doing everything I wanted to do at the time. So I don't know if I had that. I just knew I thought I wanted to act, of course, because theatrically, I could do all that. I was always on the stage since I was young, all those things. But never thinking I want to be an actor. I think anything I really wanted to be, if I had a clue, I would've stayed on it and done it, but I never really had any idea of anything. That's why I don't really have a career. But Lisa, tell us about you.
[00:21:28] Lisa Cortés: I was just thinking the subtitle of your book should be called They Made Me Do It.
[00:21:37] Bethann Hardison: You have no idea. I've told people that a long time ago. Many time I'm interviewed, I say, "They made me do it." That's going to be the name of my book.
[00:21:46] Lisa Cortés: You know Maori, no one has ever asked me that question before. And when I was a kid, I wanted to be a musical theater artist on Broadway. I loved musicals. I started going at a really early age to something called the Children's Theater Workshop where we would put on mini musicals from showboat to Gypsy. And at nine years old started auditioning, discovered I had a really powerful voice. I would dance five days a week. I loved that space. But there comes a time when you're in high school where you make these critical decisions of, am I going to spend all my time doing this or am I going to buckle up and get it together and go on to school? And I made the decision to the latter, but I also made a decision because during that time, there wasn't color-blind casting. There were so many limitations on the path of a career, and I never wanted to act, act but I wanted to be in musicals. But I didn't see a place for me as a Black woman to be more than the maid, the prostitute, to be in the third row back in the chorus line. And I wanted a bigger platform. And I think that is always a bigger platform to communicate with people is a consistent theme in my life. Whether it's the music business or narrative films or documentary films, they allow me to connect with more people with messages that are important.
[00:23:39] Bethann Hardison: It's so funny, as she was saying that I was thinking I had, especially now I'm seeing the film and with the audiences and all, sometimes you have some younger people too who say, "I didn't see anyone who looked like me, so I never felt I could do this or that." And it's interesting to me because Lawrence Welk had a television show, and I was a child tap dancer at the time, and I was quite well known. And I mean, I was so popular at that moment that they actually had me come on radio and tap I mean that's... So I got selected to do The Lawrence Welk Show, and who was a big, big, big, big popular girl on that show was Leslie Uggams. So here at that young age, there was Leslie Uggams, and she was very important to Lawrence. We were in the course line behind her. So at the end of the day, you least could see that there are people like yourself who could be, but still you knew it was all possible.
[00:24:39] Maori Karmael Holmes: I mean, that's really interesting to me. And so much of your career at Bethann, and to some extent yours, Lisa, but I feel like because of Bethann, so many of the things you did, you were the first person or among the first people to do them. I mean, it's really incredible that there was no model. You were like if someone pushed you to do it and you accepted the mission, you were still doing it without a guide, no blueprint.
[00:25:03] Bethann Hardison: Well, that's the thing with the model agency thing, that was real clear to me too, because first of all, it was going to be a White model agency, and that was something I was very clear about. And I was a Black owner, but I knew that I would have Latins and Asians and Black kids in it. But I knew that in order to compete with my White counterpart, it had to be a White model agency. And you're right to do a model agency, and you're from Bedford-Stuyvesant, and you didn't really go to college. I went to FIT and NYU, but two years here and one year there doesn't make it like you went through the spitfire of academia. So you do, you do, you sit there and you sit in that room when people, these kids, and once again, they made me do it. These kids wanted me to represent them. And you wind up sitting there thinking to yourself, "How am I going to do?" I've never... I mean, yes, I've been well-trained because I worked in the garment business and learned how to file and do switchboards and things of the most basic things can take you through life. And that for sure, I learned all the most basic things. But to actually sit there and have your own business and actually consider you're going to go up against an industry, even though it's still small, it's deep because you have Wilhelmina, Eileen Ford. You have people who've been there doing this. And I have often times said, "There's no one I could call and say, 'Hey, would you? Could you?'"
[00:26:38] Maori Karmael Holmes: Yeah. Well, I imagine one of the positives, I mean, I can imagine the challenges, but one of the positives of moving without a blueprint is that there's some freedom in that too. You don't have the pressure of living up to X, Y, and Z because it didn't exist.
[00:26:52] Bethann Hardison: I agree. I agree. It's a good point. You do help set the precedent too. You help to change the game because after me, a lot of White guys thought, well, if she can do it, I can do this too. And then they start setting up little small agencies, because before that it was big ones.
[00:27:10] Maori Karmael Holmes: Lisa, can we talk a little bit about your career in the music industry? How did you get involved in hip hop so early?
[00:27:19] Lisa Cortés: When I graduated, I was in a band, the City of Gold. I was the lead singer and I played the bongo belt. That was my instrument, and I just loved music. And I had worked at a record store in New Haven called Cutlers when I was an undergrad selling records. And I just was off from a very young age absorbing all kinds of music. A friend of mine I went to school with, she worked at The Village Voice and she said, "I'm thinking of putting them together, a magazine called Viva de Kooning, and I know you keep talking about hip hop and would you like to write about women in hip hop?" And I was like, "Yes." So this is the mid 80s but I ended up speaking to a variety of very interesting women around the country. One of them is Dominque Deprima, who still has a radio show in the Bay Area, a woman name, Taquila Mockingbird in Los Angeles. And I loved this article. The magazine never came out, and I have said to Lisa recently, "You know what? We need to complete this mission online." we'll see what happens. Stay tuned, everyone. But said to a friend of mine who worked in Interview Magazine, "I want to do something more." I was bit by the bug, and he said, "Go call this. Go see Bill Adler at Def Jam. He's a publicist there." And I called the office and Bill picked up and Bill said, "Come on over." And I was chatting with him at the Def Jam Rush office, and we were chatting, and a guy across the room said, "Well, who did you talk to in Los Angeles?" And I said, "Taquila Mockingbird." And he said, "Oh, we were roommates for a little time," and that person was Lyor Cohen. So then a couple weeks later, she came. Taquila, came to New York, I brought her by the office, I baked the ginger cake. I brought my resume, and then I kept calling and showing up, and I was like, "Where's my job? I gave you the resume on the good paper." He said, "Call me." I called, called, and I finally got him on the phone. I said, "You know, I don't really know if I'd like to work with you, or you might not want to work with me, but I'll come in and work for you for a half a day for free." And that turned in to five years.
[00:29:58] Maori Karmael Holmes: That's amazing. I know that you had your own label Loose Cannon after working as an A&R at Polygram later, and I was just curious, what was the focus of your label? I know Buju Banton was one of your bigger artists, and I still bump Til Shiloh to this day, so I want to thank you for that. But what was it like running your own label in the mid 90s?
[00:30:19] Lisa Cortés: Well, I left the Def Jam Rush family. I went to Mercury Records. I was an A&R person. I signed Buju, I signed The Black Sheep, did the cast recording of Jelly's Last Jam with George C. Wolf, from Vanessa Williams to Bon Jovi, all those different artists. And then I started... I was able to start a label called Loose Cannon. It was one of the most challenging times of my life. I was a small label. I was limited in my reach and resources. I was the only woman, the only Black woman. And it's a business that does not allow space for artist development. First song comes out, it's not a hit. People start talking about, "We're going to drop the artist." And I look at some of my favorite artists, people like the Fugees. Yeah, they didn't hit in the beginning. People, artists like U2, U2 two did not happen off of the first album. And so my label was very eclectic. It was everything from reissuing on DVD CD for the first time, the early classic records of Red Fox and Richard Pryor, and having label notes written by Walter Mosley. I was doing that. It was an extension of me in many ways, and my curiosity and my desire to present a myriad of voices that are reflective of the brilliance of Black cultural product.
[00:31:56] Maori Karmael Holmes: Mm-hmm. Bethann, I want to ask you, how did you get involved in modeling and then in the fashion world?
[00:32:07] Bethann Hardison: Because I was working in the junior dress house at Ruth Manchester, and I grew up in the garment business as an adult. Pretty much I worked in button factory and I was always... In the garment industry you're always walking the street of the garment industry for errands and things you have to do, drop-offs and things. Willie Smith saw me and he was a designer, young designer coming up very strongly working for Diges at the time, and he was very well known, popular, very well known meaning in our industry, in little industry area. And he saw me in the street and he asked me if I would consider just making appearances with him going out and things. And when I told my bosses that I worked for, they were so excited and happy and thought it was such a great idea. So that's how I started. And then that relationship allowed him to introduce me to other people along the way. I never wanted to be a model. I was just... Once again, they pushed me to do it and I just went along with it. But I wasn't trying to be a print model, but Deb was really trying to push me into doing that and pushed me into meeting Stephen Burrows and eventually these people, some things take and then you have a little bit of a life in that.
[00:33:26] Maori Karmael Holmes: So Lisa, I just want to ask, after taking a break from the music industry, you transitioned into film. And I know from personal experience, I don't know if you know I used to work in the music industry as well. There are similarities between the two, but what were some of the challenges you faced entering film in the early 2000s when you did?
[00:33:45] Lisa Cortés: The challenge was convincing people that my inherent skillset of finding talent, making a deal, making the project, delivering it to the marketplace, were transferrable. I knew I could do it, but people were like, "Well, we always hear-
[00:34:13] Bethann Hardison: No proof.
[00:34:13] Lisa Cortés: ... you haven't done this before.
[00:34:15] Bethann Hardison: Yeah, no proof.
[00:34:16] Lisa Cortés: But you know what, if you got good taste, you got good taste. So what I did is I started from the beginning. I went back to film school. I volunteered and interned at Urban World Film Festival. I went to the Toronto Film Festival and would see four films a day. I just poured into myself, I networked, I made connections, and then an opportunity came that allowed me to take all of that collective experience and apply it to a practical situation.
[00:34:54] Maori Karmael Holmes: You have now expanded from producing to directing, and I was curious, have you always wanted to direct or did that desire spring up and surprise you?
[00:35:04] Lisa Cortés: I think I wanted to direct and I did a little directing of theater when I was in college, but it's a scary step. But it was in keeping with the dreams I hold for myself and the stories that I want to tell and what I know I am gifted to do. It's draining. It takes a lot out of me because I also have a production company and a full slate of projects, but it fills me with so much joy when I create a film like Little Richard: I Am Everything and I see that the hard work that our team put into it to build my vision is resonating with people.
[00:36:03] Maori Karmael Holmes: I wanted to ask you how you came to the Little Richard Project. Did you feel a kinship to his story? Did that connection grow as you researched more about his life and what was your goal in making this film?
[00:36:18 Lisa Cortés: He passed away in May of 2020. It was the height of the pandemic. We're all at home figuring out where we're going to get toilet paper and Clorox, and I'm hearing his music. It's really giving me a lot of joy. I am looking to see if there's anything about him. I got a call about another company that was developing a project and immediately said yes. I have been thinking about him. I've started doing research and seeing that he was more than this comic relief figure who had been on talk shows saying, "Shut up." But that the music, the man, the journey, the interiority and of the complexity of his spirit and that. Wait a minute, I'm a big student of history and I'm thinking 1955, let me go in my brain on the timeline. Where are we as Black people then? Well, there are continuous cycles and reigns of terror and that's a particular high moment. A young Emmett Till who is murdered, but you also have a young little Richard with makeup and his hair combed up in a sparkly outfit singing about Tootie fruity making young girls, White girls throw their panties on the stage and shaking shit up. That's my kind of motherfucker. I need to know more. Excuse me for the children who are listening, I'm sorry I swear.
[00:38:13] Maori Karmael Holmes: Thank you. Are there any desires that you have to enter another field or shift roles and if so, into what?
[00:38:23] Lisa Cortés: I am so full with what I do now as a director, as a producer, as someone who has her own production company, that I still want to pour it so much more into all of those spaces.
[00:38:39] Maori Karmael Holmes: How about you Bethann?
[00:38:42] Bethann Hardison: Yeah, I would like to be able to see how I can leave Legacy now. I think I would mind having a foundation that when I'm gone, that there's something that there's a lot in it have maybe even with the designer stuff that I oversee, try and get someone to give us enough money so that I can hire for this foundation. People who have experts in business in the retail and wholesale so that young brands who are trying to fit in can hear ideas and be guided.
[00:39:23] Maori Karmael Holmes: I love that. Thank you. Not long after having your son, the actor, Kadeem Hardison, you founded Bethann Management. And I was curious, you talked a little bit about what didn't exist, but what was the void that you were looking to fill in the industry?
[00:39:40] Bethann Hardison: No, I wasn't trying to do anything. I was trying to escape. I didn't want to do this. Another one, they made me do it. I basically know that that was something that came because of the fact that I was with a model agency and someone had... A French agency had contacted me out of Paris. She had the best agency to all of our eye around the world, and she asked me to join her and started agency in New York. She wanted to come to New York. I was willing to do it, but what she did is that she had no intention of allow me to be her partner as she had said. So I was like a puppy without a bone. I all of a sudden didn't have a pot to piss in and I had started this idea that I was being told I was to do a model agency and I'm with this person and I came from a model agency. So it was a lot of confusion for me, and I knew I had young women who were counting on me to start it because they wanted to leave where they were. So that's how it really got to come together. Bonnie Berman found the money for me to start. All the kids that I had were talking to... They all were willing to wait to get paid, which was not normal in the industry. All the agencies had a voucher system where they could actually pay the models after the job was completed, where I could never have that kind of funds to do that. But once again, the models were so determined for me to do it. They just said, "Listen, we'll take the risk with you. We'll do the job and we'll see." So it came down to doing it based on the fact that I was just meant to do it.
[00:41:28] Maori Karmael Holmes: Takes a lot to even answer those calls so we are all appreciative that you did. In Invisible Beauty, you can feel the love and gratitude that the fashion community has for you, including the many models who you represented and mentored. And I know it can be really hard to be a mama bear for so many. And I'm curious, to whom did you turn to for council over the years?
[00:41:54] Bethann Hardison: Oh, well, there's always Millie Kaiserman, my friend. She's passed away now. Sometimes even the young ones that you have to talk to who Marianne Houtenbos, Christian's wife who is the rep of Arthur Elgar for the Forever and still is. Marianne, who was in the industry was someone that I could check in with.
[00:42:24] Maori Karmael Holmes: Bethann can you talk about what led to you shuttering the modeling agency and the company?
[00:42:33] Bethann Hardison: I tell you when you never want to do something and then you're meant to do it, but you become successful at it, then you get stuck at it. So that's what happened. I kept thinking, when can I get out? I went in saying, when can I get out? And then by the time, if Bonnie said to me, "Well give at least five years." Well, I paid back my... I think the people that loaned me the money they had given me I think I paid it back in two or three. But five turned to seven, seven turned to nine, nine turned to 11. Next thing you know 12th year, I said, "I got to get out of this." I just didn't want to continue to do it anymore. I never wanted to do it anyway, but you just get stuck. You're stuck because you have a lot of good things happening and that makes you hold on and you start developing young talent. So I basically walked away from it because I just wanted to no longer do it.
[00:43:27] Maori Karmael Holmes: Do you think you'll make another film?
[00:43:30] Bethann Hardison: Oh, that's so interesting. You said that someone and two people and different people asked me that on Sunday. I think that I talk like I wouldn't mind. I have little ideas like shorts and things, but then I keep thinking if I keep doing things like that, I could see wanting to leave a legacy behind when I say the foundation, because you can get other people to get involved to do it, and you know that you're placing in their hands and they can think of it that way. And then you can lean back and just be advising to it. When you start making other projects I think then when am I going to take those four months here, four months here and divide those 12 months up? I want to try and see what it's like when I see other people. I'm never going to really retire, but I'd like to see what that's like when you're not committed to something. But you should be casually committed to something, but not like everybody else is counting on it too.
[00:44:30] Maori Karmael Holmes: If you could go back to a particular decade in fashion, what would you most like to see make a comeback?
[00:44:37] Bethann Hardison: 70s. Not so much about fashion, but 70s and 80s. I liked those times, two times. And not so much because of fashion. Fashion gained from it of the industry, but just the time in general allowed a lot of freedom for expression, a lot of freedom for people being able to be creative, a lot of interesting people. People could survive in the environments that they love that has become so now so popular that everybody wants to be in a city that's great.
[00:45:12] Maori Karmael Holmes: Mm-hmm. My last question for you is who have been or who are currently your North Stars?
[00:45:22] Bethann Hardison: There are people in my life that really, really were really great. I mean, they were inspiring. And some who were really inspiring and lend a great ear, and that was Tony Morrison for me, in a way. Because I always liked the way, and even though the last 10 years of her life, 20 years of... I wasn't so frequent in it. It's just at a certain time we came along that was a good time that we spent time. I always loved that and even in the later years, we still have that quick talk that we could have that was really unique. And there was a young man in my life who I used to represent Nick Caman, who I always was very inspired by, and there are a few people who are like that who just inspire you. One thing I do love very much is how nice my son is.
[00:46:17] Maori Karmael Holmes: Oh, I love that.
[00:46:18] Bethann Hardison: Yeah. He is just a nice guy and I do appreciate that. We get lucky if you know somebody that's just nice and then it so happens to be you related to them, it's even better.
[00:46:32] Maori Karmael Holmes: Well, thank you so much. So amazing for you to agree to do this. I'm really excited for more people to see the film and just really happy that you took the time to be with us today. Thank you.
[00:46:44] Lisa Cortés: Thank you for this invitation to be in community and conversation with you and Bethann.
[00:46:52] Bethann Hardison: Thank you all once again for your time.
[00:46:56] Maori Karmael Holmes: Thank you so much. To keep up with more of Lisa Cortés: and Bethann Hardison's work, you can follow them on Instagram @BethannHardison and @MissCortes. This season of Many Lumens is brought to you by Open Society Foundations. It is produced by Black Star Projects in partnership with Rowhome Productions.
The host and executive producer of Many Lumens is me, Maori Karmael Holmes:. This episode was produced by Kayla Lattimore. Associate producers are Irit Reinheimer, and Zoë Greggs managing producer is Alex Lewis, executive editor is John Myers. Justin Berger is our final mix and mastering engineer. Our music supervisor is David "Lil Dave" Adams. Our theme song was composed by Vijay Mohan and remixed by Lil Dave. This episode features music by Madison McFerrin. If you've liked what you've heard so far this season, please leave us a review on Apple Podcast and let us know what you think of the show.
Sending you light, and see you next time.